When Did Ravin the Elder Live?
The other day, on Bava Batra 146b, we saw an Amora named Ravin Sava, meaning Ravin the Elder, speak before Rav Pappa.
סִבְלוֹנוֹת מוּעָטִין שֶׁתִּשְׁתַּמֵּשׁ בָּהֶן בְּבֵית אָבִיהָ וְכוּ׳. יָתֵיב רָבִין סָבָא קַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב פָּפָּא, וְיָתֵיב וְקָאָמַר: בֵּין שֶׁמֵּתָה הִיא וּבֵין שֶׁמֵּת הוּא, הָדַר הוּא – סִבְלוֹנוֹת הָדְרִי, מַאֲכָל וּמִשְׁתֶּה לָא הָדַר. הָדְרָא בָּהּ אִיהִי – הָדְרָא אֲפִילּוּ כִּישָּׁא דְיַרְקָא. אָמַר רַב הוּנָא בְּרֵיהּ דְּרַב יְהוֹשֻׁעַ: וְשָׁמִין לָהֶן דְּמֵי בָשָׂר בְּזוֹל. עַד כַּמָּה ״בְּזוֹל״? עַד תִּילְתָּא.
§ The mishna teaches: If he sent a few presents for her to use while in her father’s house, they are not collected. Ravin the Elder was sitting before Rav Pappa and he was sitting and saying: Whether she died, or whether he died, or whether he retracted his agreement to the betrothal and divorced her, the presents return to the betrothed man or his heirs, but food and drink do not return. If she retracted her agreement to the betrothal and requested a divorce, even a bundle of vegetables returns to the betrothed man. Rav Huna, son of Rav Yehoshua, said: When the presents are returned, the court appraises for the betrothed woman’s family the sum that they must repay for any meat he gave her, according to a reduced assessment of the value of the meat and not according to the price the betrothed man paid. How much less is the reduced assessment? Up to one-third less than he paid.
This struck me as very strange. I would expect “Ravin the Elder” to be of an earlier generation that plain third or fourth-generation Ravin, who is always bringing reports of second-generation Rabbi Yochanan’s views from Eretz Yisrael. Yet, he sits before Rav Pappa, who is a fifth-generation Amora. Importantly for the ensuing discussion, note that Rav Pappa’s colleague, fifth-generation Rav Huna b. Rav Yehoshua is also present.
My first inclination is to cast aspersions on this girsa, and say that it is perhaps messed up with some other Amora with a “Sava / Elder” suffix. Thus, in Hachi Garsinan, the printings and Florence 8-9 manuscript have the names like the text above:
So too Munich 95 and Paris 1337:
However, Hamburg 165 seems to have Ravin Sava before Ravina:
and Escorial has it as Rav Yeiva Sava before Rav Pappa; Vatican 115b has it as R’ Avin Sava before Rav Pappa, where you can say that R’ Avin → Ravin.
In Toledot Tannaim vaAmoraim, Rav Aharon Hyman claims that there is just one such Amora, Ravin Sava, who is Rav Pappa’s student. He points to our sugya. He emends Kiddushin 53b, which places him before Rav,
וְלָאו מִמֵּילָא שָׁמְעַתְּ מִינַּהּ? תַּרְגְּמַהּ רָבִין סָבָא קַמֵּיהּ דְּרַב: אָמַר קְרָא: ״הוּא״ – בַּהֲוָיָיתוֹ יְהֵא.
The Gemara asks: But don’t you understand it by itself from this verse? Since the verse compares the Jewish people to teruma, the categorization of “holy” evidently applies to teruma as well. Ravin the Elder interpreted it before Rav: The difference is that with regard to tithe the verse states: “It is for the Lord,” which indicates: As it is, it should be, as consecrated.
as being before Rav Pappa, pointing to Dikdukei Soferim in Pesachim 74b who says this (about Kiddushin).
Indeed, while Vilna and Venice printings have Ravin the Elder before Rav there in Kiddushin we can look at the Constantinople printing + Guadalajara printing, as well as Munich 95 manuscript, who have him before Rav Pappa.
The Munich 65 manuscript has this as Rav Yeiva the Elder before Rav Pappa. (This would certainly seem to be too early, as he was one of Rav’s students.)
Meanwhile, in Pesachim 74b, we read:
(אִינִי) וְהָא רָבִין סָבָא טַפְלֵיהּ הָהִיא בַּר גּוֹזָלָא לְרַב, וַאֲמַר לֵיהּ: אִי מְעַלֵּי טִפְלֵיהּ, הַב לִי וְאֵיכוֹל! הָהִיא בִּסְמִידָא דְּמִפְּרִיר.
The Gemara asks: Is that so? Didn’t Ravin the Elder wrap a particular young dove in dough for Rav and roast it, and Rav said to him: If its dough tastes good, give me some and I will eat? Apparently, according to Rav, although the breading absorbed blood, it also certainly discharged it during the roasting. The Gemara refutes this point: That incident involved fine flour [semida], which is crumbly and allows the blood to flow through it.
But consider the variants there in Pesachim. They are all before Rav, but who did it? Ravin Sava, and Ravon Sava, or Rav Yeiva Sava, or Rav In Sava, or Rav Iyov Sava:
So Rav Hyman there says that the correct text is Rav Yeiva Sava who was indeed Rav’s student.
So I can certainly be wrong. There were a lot of R’ Avins, so maybe this designation somehow makes sense.
In the Michlol’s entry, they mention a few ideas about Ravin Sava:
רבי יחיאל היילפרין מעלה אפשרות שהיו שני אמוראים בשם רבין סבא[4].
הוא גם מציע, בשם ספר היוחסין, שרבין סבא היה תלמידו של רב, ורב פפא שנזכר כרבו הוא רב פפא סבא, שהיה גם הוא בזמן רב[5].
רבי אהרן הימן טוען, שרבין סבא הוא תלמיד רב פפא בלבד, ובשתי המקומות שהוזכר בתלמוד כתלמיד רב – נפלו טעויות, ובמקום אחד יש להגיה "רב פפא" במקום "רב", ובשני "רב ייבא סבא", שאכן היה תלמידו של רב, במקום "רבין סבא"[6].
Rav Yechiel Heilprin is the author of Seder Hadorot. So, he suggests that there were two Amoraim by that name. (I’d prefer textual emendations, given the fluctuation present in manuscripts.) He also cites Sefer HaYuchsin, by Rav Avraham Zacut, that it was Ravin Sava who was Rav’s student, so the Rav Pappa before whom he appears in our suyga is Rav Pappa the Elder (Sava).
Yes, there are plenty of instances where we see (second-generation) Rav Pappa Sava quoting Rav. For instance, Kiddushin 71b:
אָמַר רַב פָּפָּא סָבָא מִשְּׁמֵיהּ דְּרַב: בָּבֶל – בְּרִיאָה. מֵישׁוֹן – מֵיתָה. מָדַי – חוֹלָה. עֵילָם – גּוֹסֶסֶת. וּמָה בֵּין חוֹלִין לְגוֹסְסִין? רוֹב חוֹלִין לְחַיִּים, רוֹב גּוֹסְסִים לְמִיתָה.
Rav Pappa the Elder says in the name of Rav: Babylonia is healthy with regard to lineage and clear of suspicion. Mishon is dead, meaning that all its inhabitants have flawed lineage. Media is sick, and Eilam is moribund. The Gemara clarifies: And what is the difference between sick and moribund? Most sick people recover to a healthy life, whereas most of those who are moribund are destined for death. Likewise, the majority of the residents of Media had unflawed lineage, while the majority of those living in Eilam had flawed lineage.
and perhaps we can theorize that (some of) the purported ten sons of Rav Pappa we recite at a siyum are the sons of Rav Pappa the Elder.
However, recall what I said up top, how Rav Huna bereih deRav Yehoshua weighed in. You could say that he weighed in much later. But given the context, I’d say he tugs Rav Pappa to be the typical, most frequent Rav Pappa.