In private correspondence, so I won't share the name unless he says so, another major question is chronological. Naxos minting was many centuries before Rav Pappa. Would this memory have been preserved until then?
I could answer that it did somehow preserve, as a well-known example, similar to Tyrian coins. Alternatively, see the middle image, where I give the alternative of the Byzantine Nicodemia minting, which overlaps. Issaura is 617 CE, which is after Rav Pappa.
Maybe? Do you mean Rav Pappa should say: kegon be-de-Necho? (ignoring the two shva nas for clarity) Or kegon be-Necho? How are you thinking the phrase should be translated, in English, first?
Like those that are in Necho?
Like those of Necho?
We'd need other instances of the construction, with kegon de- and the Hebrew equivalent, kegon she-. Here is a Sefaria search, restricted to Rav Pappa and kegon.
"How are you thinking the phrase should be translated, in English, first?
Like those that are in Necho?
Like those of Necho?"
I'm not sure. Probably the latter.
I think part of the problem is that your pshat introduces an asymmetry in the language. How would your translation work? Those of necho and an issur? Seems awkward. It would be much smoother if the gemara said something like כְּגוֹן בדנכו ובאיסר.
Second, I see that I was unclear in my post, and what should have been text I left in haste to the image. I don't think that the second item listed should be איסר without the vav, which would be the issar coin. Rather, I think the vav is deliberate and it should be איסור. The reference would be to a different famous minting place, Issaura. Indeed, that both Naxos (or alternatively Nicomedia) and Issaura are minting places is what first led me to this interpretation. If so, there's no asymmetry.
"Indeed, that both Naxos (or alternatively Nicomedia) and Issaura are minting places is what first led me to this interpretation. If so, there's no asymmetry."
I still think there is. כְּגוֹן בדנכו ובדאיסור would be fully symmetric. But I'm not sure. Is there a way to search for listings of 2 place names in similar possessive form?
It isn't two place names, but those *from* two place names, which is going to be even fewer. Also, I think the Talmud is written with extreme brevity, so fully spelled out and grammatical sentences will be rare. I don't think we need to say that the daled needs to repeat for each, rather than being distributive, for example.
Ah, also, not coins, but places. Coins of those places
In private correspondence, so I won't share the name unless he says so, another major question is chronological. Naxos minting was many centuries before Rav Pappa. Would this memory have been preserved until then?
I could answer that it did somehow preserve, as a well-known example, similar to Tyrian coins. Alternatively, see the middle image, where I give the alternative of the Byzantine Nicodemia minting, which overlaps. Issaura is 617 CE, which is after Rav Pappa.
Maybe? Do you mean Rav Pappa should say: kegon be-de-Necho? (ignoring the two shva nas for clarity) Or kegon be-Necho? How are you thinking the phrase should be translated, in English, first?
Like those that are in Necho?
Like those of Necho?
We'd need other instances of the construction, with kegon de- and the Hebrew equivalent, kegon she-. Here is a Sefaria search, restricted to Rav Pappa and kegon.
"How are you thinking the phrase should be translated, in English, first?
Like those that are in Necho?
Like those of Necho?"
I'm not sure. Probably the latter.
I think part of the problem is that your pshat introduces an asymmetry in the language. How would your translation work? Those of necho and an issur? Seems awkward. It would be much smoother if the gemara said something like כְּגוֹן בדנכו ובאיסר.
First, oops, here is the Sefaria search I conducted.
https://www.sefaria.org/search?q=%22%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%9C%20%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%9D%22&tab=text&tpathFilters=Talmud&tvar=0&tsort=relevance&svar=1&ssort=relevance
Second, I see that I was unclear in my post, and what should have been text I left in haste to the image. I don't think that the second item listed should be איסר without the vav, which would be the issar coin. Rather, I think the vav is deliberate and it should be איסור. The reference would be to a different famous minting place, Issaura. Indeed, that both Naxos (or alternatively Nicomedia) and Issaura are minting places is what first led me to this interpretation. If so, there's no asymmetry.
"First, oops, here is the Sefaria search I conducted."
That goes to a search for 'מכל מקום.'
sorry, too many tabs open. :)
https://www.sefaria.org/search?q=%D7%A4%D7%A4%D7%90%20%D7%9B%D7%92%D7%95%D7%9F&tab=text&tpathFilters=Talmud&tvar=0&tsort=chronological&svar=1&ssort=relevance
"Indeed, that both Naxos (or alternatively Nicomedia) and Issaura are minting places is what first led me to this interpretation. If so, there's no asymmetry."
I still think there is. כְּגוֹן בדנכו ובדאיסור would be fully symmetric. But I'm not sure. Is there a way to search for listings of 2 place names in similar possessive form?
It isn't two place names, but those *from* two place names, which is going to be even fewer. Also, I think the Talmud is written with extreme brevity, so fully spelled out and grammatical sentences will be rare. I don't think we need to say that the daled needs to repeat for each, rather than being distributive, for example.
Here btw is the sefaria search: https://www.sefaria.org/search?q=%D7%A4%D7%A4%D7%90%20%D7%9B%D7%92%D7%95%D7%9F&tab=text&tpathFilters=Talmud&tvar=0&tsort=chronological&svar=1&ssort=relevance
Are you replying to my comment? Also, I don't see any sefaria search.
If it's referring to coins, shouldn't there be a prepositional beis at beginning of the word?