Thanks, I'll correct. Indeed, as the gemara shows, they looked at female litigants, which was why rava was caught by the sudden exposure. Yes, lo taguru mipnei ish, and if he's wrong (here from a metziut sociological perspective) then I will argue. And I might even be right. Meanwhile, no one ever raised the issue with him.
She was modestly clad, he was caught by surprise when she experienced a sudden wardrobe malfunction. The cases u cite aren't comparable, presumably most if not all women would understand why a Rabbi wouldn't necessarily look at them. Additionally, even if you are correct who is to say that R Ovadya looked at the men when they came along with a female disputant?
First , there's the emotional impact even if they understand in an intellectual level. Second, this was even for modestly dressed women as I heard it. Third, there is the lack of the judge's perception that I mentioned, that he's making himself half blind. Fourth, him nor looking at the men was never mentioned in any of the recountings I've seen. No one retelling it even had a moment of reflection that this could be a problem. So maybe it's true, and good if so. But it is a newly invented detail to solve a pointed out problem.
לא שמענו אינה ראיה. It's a free country and you're welcome to make any point you'd like and you may even be right but it doesn't sit right with me the way you're going about it. Also, how do you know the story is true - did you verify it? What would you have God fearing Rabbis do when immodestly clad appear b4 them ? Offer them a shawl? Not look at either? Maybe that's what happened, if the story is even true.
Indeed, I hope it's not true. He didn't say it himself. Rather, this is second hand and somewhat hagiographic, connecting it to his incredible memory and mastery of sources. Yet if people, including sefardic dayanim, do accept it as a positive practice, then it is important to point ot why this is not actually positive.
What to do for immodesty is a separate question. But if he indeed deemed it a problem, see the source about dressing the litigants. Imagine a standard nongendered litigant shawl.
So you don't know if it's true and even if it is you don't know if a shawl was offered or if he looked at the men. Maybe you'd like to poke fun at this story וזכורני סיפור מידידינו בנש”ק הרה”ג רבי משה יוסף שליט”א, בנו של הגרע”י זיע”א, שבסוף ימיו של רבינו הגדול היה לו כאב גדול מאד, שלא נתן לו מנוח לעסוק בתורה, ואפי’ לישן לא היה יכול כדבעי, ולבסוף כשהובא הרופא ובדקו ראה פצע בעייתי באיזור השייך מתחת לאבנטו, ואז שאל ר’ משה את אביו, אבא, למה לא אמרתי לי מלכתחילה שיש לך פצע, והשיבו הרב מיד, ומהיכן לי לדעת, וכי נראה לך שאסתכל שם, הלא אסור להסתכל במילה… [ע’ שבת (קיח ע”ב), וסנהדרין (צב סע”א), וזהר (פ’ קדושים, דפ”ד ע”א). ואכמ”ל] and this one נזכרתי כעת במה שסיפרה לי מרת אמי שתחי’ שהיא זוכרת לפני כארבעים שנה שהיה חכם יעקב זצוק”ל בנו של מרן ע”ה בא אליהם הביתה, ובכל פעם שהיה מגיע לבקש את אבי שיחי’, והיא היתה פותחת את הדלת, הוא כבר היה מוכן מראש כשעיניו נעוצות בקרקע, ומעולם לא הרים את פניו כלפיה. Id downvote this if substack offered such a feature
Looks like it was in France - not tzefat. Also, df about this gemara https://shas.alhatorah.org/Full/Ketubot/65a.9#e0n6. Lastly, it's good to know you're a bar pelugta of R Ovadya
Thanks, I'll correct. Indeed, as the gemara shows, they looked at female litigants, which was why rava was caught by the sudden exposure. Yes, lo taguru mipnei ish, and if he's wrong (here from a metziut sociological perspective) then I will argue. And I might even be right. Meanwhile, no one ever raised the issue with him.
She was modestly clad, he was caught by surprise when she experienced a sudden wardrobe malfunction. The cases u cite aren't comparable, presumably most if not all women would understand why a Rabbi wouldn't necessarily look at them. Additionally, even if you are correct who is to say that R Ovadya looked at the men when they came along with a female disputant?
First , there's the emotional impact even if they understand in an intellectual level. Second, this was even for modestly dressed women as I heard it. Third, there is the lack of the judge's perception that I mentioned, that he's making himself half blind. Fourth, him nor looking at the men was never mentioned in any of the recountings I've seen. No one retelling it even had a moment of reflection that this could be a problem. So maybe it's true, and good if so. But it is a newly invented detail to solve a pointed out problem.
לא שמענו אינה ראיה. It's a free country and you're welcome to make any point you'd like and you may even be right but it doesn't sit right with me the way you're going about it. Also, how do you know the story is true - did you verify it? What would you have God fearing Rabbis do when immodestly clad appear b4 them ? Offer them a shawl? Not look at either? Maybe that's what happened, if the story is even true.
Indeed, I hope it's not true. He didn't say it himself. Rather, this is second hand and somewhat hagiographic, connecting it to his incredible memory and mastery of sources. Yet if people, including sefardic dayanim, do accept it as a positive practice, then it is important to point ot why this is not actually positive.
What to do for immodesty is a separate question. But if he indeed deemed it a problem, see the source about dressing the litigants. Imagine a standard nongendered litigant shawl.
So you don't know if it's true and even if it is you don't know if a shawl was offered or if he looked at the men. Maybe you'd like to poke fun at this story וזכורני סיפור מידידינו בנש”ק הרה”ג רבי משה יוסף שליט”א, בנו של הגרע”י זיע”א, שבסוף ימיו של רבינו הגדול היה לו כאב גדול מאד, שלא נתן לו מנוח לעסוק בתורה, ואפי’ לישן לא היה יכול כדבעי, ולבסוף כשהובא הרופא ובדקו ראה פצע בעייתי באיזור השייך מתחת לאבנטו, ואז שאל ר’ משה את אביו, אבא, למה לא אמרתי לי מלכתחילה שיש לך פצע, והשיבו הרב מיד, ומהיכן לי לדעת, וכי נראה לך שאסתכל שם, הלא אסור להסתכל במילה… [ע’ שבת (קיח ע”ב), וסנהדרין (צב סע”א), וזהר (פ’ קדושים, דפ”ד ע”א). ואכמ”ל] and this one נזכרתי כעת במה שסיפרה לי מרת אמי שתחי’ שהיא זוכרת לפני כארבעים שנה שהיה חכם יעקב זצוק”ל בנו של מרן ע”ה בא אליהם הביתה, ובכל פעם שהיה מגיע לבקש את אבי שיחי’, והיא היתה פותחת את הדלת, הוא כבר היה מוכן מראש כשעיניו נעוצות בקרקע, ומעולם לא הרים את פניו כלפיה. Id downvote this if substack offered such a feature